Srila Prabhupada's startling challenge to the modern
scientific theory of the
 origin of life and the universe.

The First Morning Walk April 18, 1973
The Second Morning Walk April 19, 1973
The Third Morning Walk April 28, 1973
The Fourth Morning Walk April, 29, 1973
The Fifth Morning Walk May 3, 1973
The Sixth Morning Walk May 7, 1973
The Seventh Morning Walk May 8, 1973
The Eighth Morning Walk May 11, 1973
The Ninth Morning Walk May 13, 1973
The Tenth Morning Walk May 14, 1973
The Eleventh Morning Walk May 15, 1973
The Twelfth Morning Walk May 17, 1973
The Thirteenth Walk December 2, 1973
The Fourteenth Walk December 3, 1973
The Fifteenth Morning Walk December 7, 1973
The Sixteenth Morning Walk December 10, 1973
Life Comes From Life - Verse Notes
Dr. T.D. Singh [Bhakti-svarupa Damodara Maharaja]

The Eighth Morning Walk: May 11, 1973
Recorded on May 11, 1973, on the shores of the Pacific Ocean near Los Angeles

Srila Prabhupada is accompanied by Dr. Singh and other students.

The Evolution of Consciousness

Dr. Singh. Srila Prabhupada, I came across a statement in the Bhagavad-gita to the effect that all 8,400,000 species of living entities are created simultaneously. Is that correct?
Srila Prabhupada. Yes.
Dr. Singh. Does that mean that there are some living entities who come directly to the human species without undergoing the evolutionary process?
Srila Prabhupada. Yes. Living beings move from one bodily form to another. The forms already exist. The living entity simply transfers himself, just as a man transfers himself from one apartment to another. One apartment is first class, another is second class and another is third class. Suppose a person comes from a lower-class apartment to a first-class apartment. The person is the same, but now, according to his capacity for payment, or karma,[13] he is able to occupy a higher-class apartment. Real evolution does not mean physical development, but development of consciousness. Do you follow?
Dr. Singh. I think so. Do you mean that if one falls to one of the lower stages of life, he must evolve step by step up to the higher stages?
Srila Prabhupada. Yes. As you get more money you can move to a better apartment. The apartment already exists, however. It is not that the lower-class apartment becomes the higher-class apartment. That is Darwin's nonsensical theory. He would say that the apartment has become high class. Modern scientists think that life has come from matter. They say that millions and millions of years ago there was simply matter, but no life. We do not accept that. Of the two energies--life and matter--life, or spirit, is the original, superior energy, and matter is the resultant inferior energy.
Dr. Singh. Do they exist simultaneously?
Srila Prabhupada. Yes, but spirit is independent, and matter is dependent. For example, I can live even without my hands or legs. If they were amputated, I could survive. Therefore I am not dependent on my hands and legs; my hands and legs are dependent on me, the spirit soul within my body.

Bodies for Eternal Desires

Dr. Singh. But do life and matter come simultaneously?
Srila Prabhupada. No. They do not "come" at all. They already exist. The "coming" idea is in our minds because we are living in this limited world, where we see that there is a beginning to everything. Therefore we think in terms of things "coming." But actually matter and spirit already exist. When I am born, I think my birth is the beginning of the world. But the world already exists. Another example is a fire. When you light a fire, do the light and heat begin later on? No. Whenever a fire is ignited, immediately there is light and heat. But suppose I think, "Now there is a fire, but I have to wait for the light and heat to come later on." isn't that foolishness?
Dr. Singh. But fire is the source of the heat and light.
Srila Prabhupada. Yes, but still the heat and light exist simultaneously with the fire. Similarly, the eternal living entities have many different eternal desires. And all the varieties of species also exist eternally to fit these various eternal desires.
Dr. Singh. And the living entities are made to live in different bodies according to these desires?
Srila Prabhupada. Yes. For example, the government constructs a prison house because it knows there will be criminals. So when a criminal is tried and convicted, the prison already exists, even before the judgment period. Similarly, God is described as sarva-jna, He who knows everything. Thus He knows that some living entities will become criminal and rebel against His service. Furthermore, He knows the various desires the living entities in the material world acquire according to the three modes of material nature. Therefore He creates all the species of life from the very beginning to accommodate all the conditioned souls.
   The three modes of material nature are sattva-guna [goodness], rajo-guna [passion] and tamo-guna [ignorance]. With these three qualities, all the different objects of the material world are made, just as one might mix the three primary colors (blue, red and yellow) to make millions of hues. The great expertise required to handle this arrangement exists in nature. According to the Bhagavad-gita (3.27), prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah: "All activities are performed by the modes of material nature." And these modes are manifested in the different types of species, which include plants, trees, aquatics, human beings, demigods, cats, dogs and many others, totaling 8,400,000.
   The Supreme Lord expands Himself as the Paramatma, or Supersoul, in everyone's heart. Although dwelling in the material body, this Supersoul is not material, even though He is the original source of the material body. Because heat and light are the energies of the sun, the sun never feels "too hot." Similarly, for the Paramatma there is no distinction between spiritual and material because both the material and the spiritual energies emanate from Him. Sometimes we see that clouds cover the sun; but that is actually our imperfection. We on this planet experience both sunshine and cloudiness, but on the sun, even though it can create clouds, only sunshine is experienced. Similarly, the division of matter and spirit is our experience, not God's. Whether He comes in a so-called material body or in a spiritual body, He is always spiritual. For Him matter and spirit are the same because He is the energetic. He can turn matter into spirit, and spirit into matter. O Plus Mystic Power
Dr. Singh. The chemists and the scientists think that certain elements enable the spirit soul to remain in the material world. These elements, they say, are carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and oxygen--the main elements that combine to form living units. I think the Vedas teach that in order for a living creature to develop, spirit must first enter within these preexisting chemical elements. Is that correct?
Srila Prabhupada. Yes. For example, the earth contains everything necessary for a plant to grow, but you must first put a seed in the earth. Similarly, a mother has within her womb all the necessary ingredients for creating another body, but the father must first inject the semen, or seed, into the womb; then the child will develop. A dog forms a dog's body, and a human forms a human body. Why? Because all the required ingredients are there, respectively.
   We find a certain quantity of chemicals in my body, a smaller quantity in an ant's body, and a greater quantity in an elephant's body. So, if I can create so many more chemicals than an ant, and an elephant can create so many more chemicals than I can, then just think how many more chemicals God can create! This is the basis on which scientists should consider how hydrogen and oxygen combine to form water. Otherwise, they cannot identify the source of the vast quantities of hydrogen and oxygen required to make the oceans. But we can. This hydrogen and oxygen exist in the virat-rupa, the universal body of the Lord. Why do the scientists fail to understand this plain truth? Hydrogen and oxygen combine to form the water in the seas. We both accept this fact. But the scientists are surprised to hear that the origin of this huge quantity of hydrogen and oxygen is actually acintya-sakti, or the inconceivable mystic power of the Lord.

The Definition of "Life"

Dr. Singh. I have noticed a disagreement within the scientific community over the definition of living and nonliving. Some say that if a being can reproduce, it is alive. Therefore, they claim to have created life because certain large DNA molecules[14] produced in the laboratory can replicate themselves; that is, they can reproduce other chains of molecules by their own power. Some scientists say these DNA molecules are living, and others say they are not.
Srila Prabhupada. Because somebody is saying one thing and somebody is saying another, their knowledge must be imperfect.
Dr. Singh. Can we define living as "containing consciousness" and nonliving as "without consciousness"?
Srila Prabhupada. Yes, that is the difference. As Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita (2.17), avinasi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idam tatam: "That which is spread all over the body is indestructible." Anyone can understand what is spread all over a living body; it is consciousness. According to our consciousness at the time of death, we are awarded a particular bodily shape. If you have a dog's consciousness, you will get a dog's body, and if you have a godly consciousness, you get a demigod's body.[15] Krsna gives everyone the freedom to take whatever body he wants:

yanti deva-vrata devan / pitrn yanti pitr-vratah
bhutani yanti bhutejya / yanti mad-yajino 'pi mam

"Those who worship the demigods will take birth among the demigods; those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings; those who worship ancestors go to the ancestors; and those who worship Me will live with Me." (Bg. 9.25)

Darwin Condemned

Dr. Singh. If a human being doesn't attain liberation, does he have to pass through all 8,400,000 species of life before again coming to the human form?
Srila Prabhupada. No, only in the lower forms of life does the living entity progress step by step, according to the laws of nature. In the human form of life, he is endowed with developed consciousness--he has discretion. Therefore if he is advanced in consciousness, he is not going to get the body of a dog or cat; he will get another human body.

prapya punya-krtam lokan / usitva sasvatih samah
sucinam srimatam gehe / yoga-bhrasto 'bhijayate [16]

The word yoga-bhrastah refers to someone practicing yoga who somehow or other could not fully succeed. There's no question of evolution here; he is again awarded a human body. He does not get a cat's body or a dog's body. As with the apartments we were discussing, if you can pay more, you get a nicer apartment. You do not have to come to the lower-class apartment first.
Dr. Singh. What you have been saying completely contradicts Darwin's theory of evolution.
Srila Prabhupada. Darwin is a rascal. What is his theory? We kick out Darwin's philosophy. The more we kick out Darwin's philosophy, the more we advance in spiritual consciousness.
Dr. Singh. Many scientists doubt Darwin's theories. But Darwin's supporters say that life started from matter and evolved from unicellular organisms to multicellular organisms. They believe that higher species like animals and men did not exist at the beginning of creation.
Srila Prabhupada. Darwin and his followers are rascals. If originally there were no higher species, why do they exist now? Also, why do the lower species still exist? For example, at the present moment we see both the intellectual person and the foolish ass. Why do both these entities exist simultaneously? Why hasn't the ass form evolved upward and disappeared? Why do we never see a monkey giving birth to a human? The Darwinists' theory that human life began in such and such an era is nonsense. Bhagavad-gita says that you can directly transmigrate to any species of life you like, according to your efforts. Sometimes I travel to America, sometimes to Australia and sometimes to Africa. The countries already exist. I am simply traveling through them. It is not that because I have come to America, I have created or become America. And there are many countries I have not yet seen. Does that mean they do not exist? The scientists who support Darwin are nonsensical.
   Bhagavad-gita clearly says that all the species exist simultaneously, and that you can go to whichever species you like. You can even go up to the kingdom of God, if you so desire. All this is declared in Bhagavad-gita by Lord Krsna.

The Ninth Morning Walk: May 13, 1973

Recorded on May 13, 1973, in Cheviot Hills Park, Los Angeles

Srila Prabhupada is accompanied by Dr. Singh,
Karandhara dasa adhikari and other students.

Evolution From Human to Dog

Srila Prabhupada. The so-called scientists are putting their faith in a fraudulent theory. Krsna says, aham sarvasya prabhavah: "I am the origin of everything." (Bg. 10.8) Krsna is life; Krsna is not a dead stone.
Dr. Singh. So matter is caused by life?
Srila Prabhupada. Yes, and matter grows upon life; my body grows upon me, the spirit soul. For example, I have put on this overcoat, which is made according to the size of my body. But i would be foolish if I thought, "I am this overcoat."
Student. Srila Prabhupada, mineralogists have proven that mountains are growing by sedimentary activity. Is this growth due to the presence of the spirit soul?
Srila Prabhupada. Yes. Srimad-Bhagavatam describes mountains as the bones of God, and the grass as the hair on His body. So, in this sense, God has the biggest body.
Dr. Singh. Srila Prabhupada, what is the difference between the transmigration of souls in animal bodies and the transmigration of human souls?
Srila Prabhupada. Animals transmigrate in only one direction--upward--but human beings can transmigrate to either a higher or a lower form of life. The body is awarded according to the living entity's desire. The lower animals have one kind of desire, but the human being has thousands and millions of desires--animal desires as well as human desires. By nature's law, the lower species are coming up from animal forms to the higher, human forms. But once you come to the human form, if you don't cultivate Krsna consciousness you may return to the body of a cat or dog.


Dr. Singh. The scientists have no information that there is evolution up or down from the human platform.
Srila Prabhupada. Therefore I say they are rascals. They have no knowledge, yet they still claim to be scientists. Real science is in the Bhagavad-gita, where Krsna says, yanti deva-vrata devan pitrn yanti pitr-vratah (Bg. 9.25). This means that whatever one worships in this life will determine the type of body he gets in his next life. But if one worships Krsna, he ends the process of transmigration entirely. Yam prapya na nivartante tad dhama: "When one goes to that supreme abode of Mine, he never returns [to this material world of birth and death]." (Bg. 8.21) Promotion to the spiritual world (samsiddhim paramam) is the ultimate perfection of human life. Read Bhagavad-gita; everything is there. But the scientists have no idea of this perfection; they do not even believe in the existence of the living entity apart from the gross body.
Dr. Singh. They do not speak of the living entity; they speak only of bodies.
Student. Their conception is something akin to Buddhism. The Buddhists say that the body is like a house. Just as a house is put together with wood, the body is put together with chemicals. And when the body dies, it is just like a house that falls apart. Just as the house becomes simply pieces of wood and then there is no more house, so the body becomes simply chemicals, and there is no more body and no more life.
Srila Prabhupada. That state is called nirvana. And then, with the ingredients, you can build another house or another body. That is Buddhism. The Buddhists do not have any information regarding the soul.

Destiny and Karma

Student. Some scientists argue that there are several souls within each body. They use the earthworm as an example. If you cut it in half, both parts will live. They say this proves that two souls occupied the original worm's body.
Srila Prabhupada. No. It is simply that a new soul has come to occupy the other half of the worm's body.
Dr. Singh. Must the spirit soul necessarily have a body--either spiritual or material?
Srila Prabhupada. The soul already has a spiritual body, which the material body covers. My material body grows upon me--my spiritual body--but my material body is unnatural. The real body is spiritual. I am accepting various bodies that are unnatural to my constitution. My real, constitutional position is to be the servant of Krsna. As long as I do not come to that position, I remain a servant of matter and get many material bodies according to the laws of material energy. i get one body and then give it up. I desire something else and again get another body. This process is going on under the strict laws of material nature. People think they completely control their destinies, but they are always under nature's law of karma:

prakrteh kriyamanani / gunaih karmani sarvasah
ahankara-vimudhatma / kartaham iti manyate

"The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities that are In actuality carried out by nature." (Bg. 3.27) The source of this bewilderment is that the living entity thinks, "I am this body."

isvarah sarva-bhutanam / hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati
bhramayan sarva-bhutani / yantrarudhani mayaya [17]

In this verse the word yantra, or "machine," means that in any species of life, we are traveling in bodies that are like machines provided by material nature. Sometimes we are moving to higher species, sometimes to lower species. But if, by the mercy of the spiritual master and Krsna, one gets the seed of devotional service and cultivates it, he can become free from the cycle of birth and death. Then his life is successful. Otherwise, he has to travel up and down the different species of life, becoming sometimes a blade of grass, sometimes a lion, and so forth.

Advertising Ignorance as knowledge

Student. So it is our desire to enjoy that causes us to take on these material bodies, and our desire to achieve Krsna that brings us to our natural position?
Srila Prabhupada. Yes.
Dr. Singh. But there seems to be a constant struggle with our lower nature. We are constantly fighting our desires for sense gratification, even though we want to serve Krsna. Does this continue?
Student. The body is almost like a dictator from within.
Srila Prabhupada. Yes. That means you are strongly under the control of material energy, or maya.
Dr. Singh. Even though we also desire to serve Krsna?
Srila Prabhupada. Yes. A thief may know that if he steals he will be arrested and put into jail--he may have even seen others being arrested--yet he still steals. Even though he is aware that he is under the authority of the state, he still acts according to his desires. This is called tamas, or ignorance. Therefore, knowledge is the beginning of spiritual life. In Bhagavad-gita, Krsna gives Arjuna knowledge. He teaches, "You are not this body." This is the beginning of knowledge. But where is the university that teaches this knowledge? Dr. Singh, can you tell me where that university is that teaches this knowledge?
Dr. Singh. There is none.
Srila Prabhupada. That is the position of education: there is no knowledge. They simply advertise ignorance as knowledge.
Dr. Singh. But if the scientists knew that they were not their bodies, their whole outlook would change.
Srila Prabhupada. Yes, we want that.
Student. But they don't want to admit their failure.
Srila Prabhupada. Then that is further foolishness. If you are a fool and you pose yourself as intelligent, that is further foolishness. Then you cannot make progress. And if you remain in ignorance and advertise yourself as a man of knowledge, you are a great cheater. You are cheating yourself and cheating others. People are so mad after the material advancement of civilization that they have become exactly like cats and dogs. For instance, they have set up an immigration department, and as soon as you enter a country these dogs go "Woof, woof, woof! Why have you come? What is your business?" This is a watchdog's activity. A first-class gentleman is being searched for a revolver. People cannot be trusted, and now there are so many educated rogues and thieves. So what is the meaning of advancement? Can we say that education means advancement? Is this civilization?
Student. So it is our desire to enjoy that causes us to take on these material bodies, and our desire to achieve Krsna that brings us to our natural position?
Srila Prabhupada. Yes.
Dr. Singh. But there seems to be a constant struggle with our lower nature. We are constantly fighting our desires for sense gratification, even though we want to serve Krsna. Does this continue?
Student. The body is almost like a dictator from within.
Srila Prabhupada. Yes. That means you are strongly under the control of material energy, or maya.
Dr. Singh. Even though we also desire to serve Krsna?
Srila Prabhupada. Yes. A thief may know that if he steals he will be arrested and put into jail--he may have even seen others being arrested--yet he still steals. Even though he is aware that he is under the authority of the state, he still acts according to his desires. This is called tamas, or ignorance. Therefore, knowledge is the beginning of spiritual life. In Bhagavad-gita, Krsna gives Arjuna knowledge. He teaches, "You are not this body." This is the beginning of knowledge. But where is the university that teaches this knowledge? Dr. Singh, can you tell me where that university is that teaches this knowledge?
Dr. Singh. There is none.
Srila Prabhupada. That is the position of education: there is no knowledge. They simply advertise ignorance as knowledge.
Dr. Singh. But if the scientists knew that they were not their bodies, their whole outlook would change.
Srila Prabhupada. Yes, we want that.
Student. But they don't want to admit their failure.
Srila Prabhupada. Then that is further foolishness. If you are a fool and you pose yourself as intelligent, that is further foolishness. Then you cannot make progress. And if you remain in ignorance and advertise yourself as a man of knowledge, you are a great cheater. You are cheating yourself and cheating others. People are so mad after the material advancement of civilization that they have become exactly like cats and dogs. For instance, they have set up an immigration department, and as soon as you enter a country these dogs go "Woof, woof, woof! Why have you come? What is your business?" This is a watchdog's activity. A first-class gentleman is being searched for a revolver. People cannot be trusted, and now there are so many educated rogues and thieves. So what is the meaning of advancement? Can we say that education means advancement? Is this civilization?

Fighting Ignorance With Arguments and Knowledge

Student. Some people say that one reason for the Vietnam war was that the Communists were atheists. It was a dispute between the theists and the atheists. At least that is one excuse given for the war.
Srila Prabhupada. We are also prepared to kill the atheists. But that killing is by preaching. If I kill your ignorance, it can also be called killing. Killing doesn't necessarily mean that everyone has to take the sword.
Dr. Singh. A new method of warfare?
Srila Prabhupada. No, fighting ignorance with arguments and knowledge has always existed. The bodily conception of life is animal life. The animal does not know about matter and spirit. And one who is under the bodily conception of life is no better than an animal. When an animal "talks," the intelligent man laughs. Such "talk" is nonsense. The animal is not talking knowledge.
Student. At least the animals live by certain codes. They do not kill unnecessarily, and they only eat when necessary, whereas humans kill unnecessarily and eat unnecessarily. So in one sense humans are lower than animals.
Srila Prabhupada. Therefore we must suffer more than animals. Krsna consciousness is not a bogus, sentimental religious movement. It is a scientific movement designed to alleviate human suffering.
Dr. Singh. Scientists and other people say that everything in the universe is happening by chance.
Srila Prabhupada. So, are they also writing books on the subject by chance?
Karandhara. The books are also written by chance, they say.
Srila Prabhupada. So, what is their credit? By chance, anything can be written.
Dr. Singh. The French scientist Dr. J. Monod got the Nobel Prize in 1965. He says that everything started by chance--that by chance certain chemicals combined and formed the basic molecules.
Srila Prabhupada. But where did the chemicals come from?
Dr. Singh. According to him, they were created simply by chance, and when the necessity arose, molecules of the chemicals reoriented themselves.
Srila Prabhupada. If everything was happening by chance, how can there be necessity? How can he speak of chance and necessity in the same breath? It is nonsense. If everything is directed by chance, why do people send their children to school? Why not let them grow up by chance? Suppose I break a law. If I say, "Well, it just happened by chance," will I be excused?
Dr. Singh. So, is crime caused by ignorance?
Srila Prabhupada. Yes. That is the cause: my ignorance.
Student. It would certainly be stupid to say that a beautiful instrument like a violin was made by chance.
Srila Prabhupada. Yes. It is most regrettable that such a rascal can get recognition. He is talking foolishness and getting recognition.

The Tenth Morning Walk: May 14, 1973

Recorded on May 14, 1973, in Cheviot Hills Park, Los Angeles

Srila Prabhupada is accompanied by Dr. Singh and other students.

The Scientists' Mistake

Srila Prabhupada. The scientists' mistake is that they are ignorant of the two energies--material and spiritual. They say that everything is material and that everything emanates from matter. The defect in their theories is that they begin from matter instead of spirit. Since matter comes from spirit, in a sense everything is spiritual. Spiritual energy is the source and can exist without the material energy. But the material energy has no existence without the spiritual energy. It is correct to say that darkness begins from light, not that light begins from darkness. Scientists think that consciousness comes from matter. Actually, consciousness always exists, but when it is covered or degraded by ignorance, it is a form of unconsciousness. So "material" means forgetfulness of Krsna, and "spiritual" means full consciousness of Krsna. Is this clear? Try to understand: darkness comes from light. When no light is visible, then we are in darkness. Clouds are not to be found in the sun; that would be against the nature of the sun. But by the energy of the sun other things are temporarily created, such as mist, clouds or darkness. These creations are temporary, but the sun remains. Similarly, material nature is temporary, but spiritual nature is permanent. Krsna consciousness means getting out of this temporary nature and attaining a permanent, spiritual nature. No one actually wants this temporary nature; no one likes this cloudy atmosphere.
Dr. Singh. is this cloudy consciousness created from spiritual energy?
Srila Prabhupada. Yes.
Dr. Singh. And matter is also created from the superior energy?
Srila Prabhupada. Aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah sarvam pravartate. Krsna says, "I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me." (Bg. 8.10) Krsna is the creator of everything, bad or good. Actually, "bad and good" is a material creation. Krsna's creation is good; God is good. What you think is bad is good for God. Therefore, we cannot understand Krsna. He is doing something that in our consideration may be bad, but for Him there is no such thing as good or bad. For example, Krsna married sixteen thousand wives. Some people may criticize, "Ah, He is so mad after women." But they do not see the whole picture. Krsna's power is so great that He expanded Himself into sixteen thousand different husbands.

"Everything Is One" Is Nonsense

Dr. Singh. You said this mist of material nature is temporary. But why should we bother to disentangle ourselves from something transitory?
Srila Prabhupada. Why do you put coverings on your body? You may walk naked. The weather will clear in a few hours. Why do you cover yourself?
Dr. Singh. The danger is now.
Srila Prabhupada. Whenever it may be, why do you take this step of covering your body?
Dr. Singh. To avoid discomfort.
Srila Prabhupada. Yes. Otherwise you would be uncomfortable. Not to bother to dress is the Mayavada theory: "Everything will come automatically, so why bother? Everything is one." That is a nonsensical theory. The Mayavada philosophy is that God is one and that every thing and every living being is equal to God.
   We have no quarrel with the chemists if they begin from life, but unfortunately they say that everything begins from darkness--dead matter. That is what we object to. We say, "Begin from life," and they say, "No, begin from matter--darkness." The reason they are in darkness is simple: if one goes from darkness to light, he thinks that darkness is the beginning. Suppose you have been in darkness all your life, and now you suddenly come into the light. You will think, "Oh, light has come from darkness." Actually, darkness occurs when light becomes dim. Darkness does not produce light.
Dr. Singh. Then darkness is dependent on light?
Srila Prabhupada. Yes. Or in other words, in the light there is no darkness. When the light is dim--then we experience darkness. Similarly, when our spiritual consciousness, or Krsna consciousness, is dim, our consciousness is material. In the morning we awaken, and at the end of the day we become tired and go to sleep. When life is somehow or other interrupted, we sleep. We sleep at night, and when we get up in the morning we understand that our wakefulness, or "life," has not come into existence from the sleepy condition. I was alive even while I slept, and on awakening I am still alive. This should be clearly understood. A baby comes from the womb of his mother. He thinks that his life has begun from the day he comes out of the womb. But that is not a fact. Actually, he is eternal. He constructed his material body within the womb of his mother while he was unconscious, and as soon as his bodily features were sufficiently developed, he came out of the womb and again to consciousness.
Dr. Singh. And he again falls asleep at death.
Srila Prabhupada. Yes. That is described in Bhagavad-gita (8.19):

bhuta-gramah sa evayam / bhutva bhutva praliyate
ratry-agame 'vasah partha / prabhavaty ahar-agame

"Again and again the day comes, and this host of beings is active, and again night falls, O Partha, and they are helplessly dissolved."

We Are Not These Bodies

Srila Prabhupada. Do you see this flower? It has come back to consciousness, and soon it will dry up and die. This is material life. But spiritual life means to flower only--no dissolution. That is the difference between matter and spirit. I have achieved this body according to my consciousness in my last life. And I will receive my next body according to my consciousness in this life. This is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita (8.6):

yam yam vapi smaran bhavam / tyajaty ante kalevaram
tam tam evaiti kaunteya / sada tad-bhava-bhavitah

"Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, that state he will attain without fail."
Dr. Singh. Srila Prabhupada, if our next body is always achieved by our consciousness in this life, how is it that I cannot remember my previous life?
Srila Prabhupada. Do you remember everything you did last year, or even yesterday?
Dr. Singh. No, I don't.
Srila Prabhupada. That is your nature: you forget.
Dr. Singh. Some things.
Srila Prabhupada. And somebody forgets more than others. But we all forget.
Dr. Singh. Is that a principle of material nature?
Srila Prabhupada. Yes. It is something like stealing. Somebody is a pickpocket and somebody is a bank robber, but both of them are stealing.
Dr. Singh. When we dream, are we being carried away by the subtle elements?
Srila Prabhupada. You are being carried away by nature. Krsna says in Bhagavad-gita (3.27):

prakrteh kriyamanani / gunaih karmani sarvasah
ahankara-vimudhatma / kartaham iti manyate

"The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities that are in actuality carried out by nature." We forget our real identity because we are under the grip of material nature. The first lesson in spiritual life is that we are not these bodies, but eternal spirit souls. Once you were a child. Now you are a grown man. Where is your childhood body? That body does not exist, but you still exist because you are eternal. The circumstantial body has changed, but you have not changed. This is the proof of eternality. You remember that you did certain things yesterday and certain things today, but you forget other things. Your body of yesterday is not today's body. Do you admit it or not? You cannot say that today is the thirteenth of May, 1973. You cannot say that today is yesterday. The thirteenth was yesterday. The day has changed. But you remember yesterday; and that remembrance is evidence of your eternality. The body has changed, but you remember it; therefore you are eternal, although the body is temporary. This proof is very simple. Even a child can understand it. Is it difficult to understand?

Changing Bodies

Dr. Singh. People want more proof.
Srila Prabhupada. What more is required? The eternality of the soul is a simple fact. I am an eternal soul. My body is changing, but I am not changing. For example, I am now an old man. Sometimes I think, "Oh, I used to jump and play, but now I cannot jump because my body has changed." I want to jump, but I cannot do it. That jumping propensity is eternal, but because of my old body I cannot do it.
Dr. Singh. Opponents will say that according to their observation, the nature of consciousness is that it lasts for only one body.
Srila Prabhupada. That is foolishness. In Bhagavad-gita (2.13) Krsna explains:

dehino 'smin yatha dehe / kaumaram yauvanam jara
tatha dehantara-praptir / dhiras tatra na muhyati

"As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change." Just as this body is always changing (as I can see in my daily experience), there is a similar change at the time of death.
Dr. Singh. But according to the scientists, we cannot actually observe this last change.
Srila Prabhupada. Their eyes are so imperfect that they cannot observe many, many things. Their ignorance does not make the Bhagavad-gita unscientific. Why don't the scientists admit the imperfection of their senses? They must first admit the imperfection of their senses. Their seeing power does not determine what is and what is not science. Dogs cannot understand the laws of nature. Does that mean the laws of nature don't exist?
Dr. Singh. Well, the scientists admit that argument, but they say the way to become perfect is through objective information and experience.
Srila Prabhupada. No. That is not the way to become perfect. No one can become perfect through imperfect thinking, and our thinking must be imperfect because our senses and minds are imperfect.
Dr. Singh. Srila Prabhupada, another question can be raised. is it not possible that the soul may accept three, four or five bodies and then die?
Srila Prabhupada. You are accepting millions of bodies. I say that your body of yesterday is not your body of today. So, if you live for one hundred years, how many times have you changed bodies? Just calculate.
Dr. Singh. Thirteen.
Srila Prabhupada. Why thirteen?
Dr. Singh. Medical science says that all the bodily cells are replaced every seven years.
Srila Prabhupada. No, not every seven years--every second. Every second, the blood corpuscles are changing. Is it not so?
Dr. Singh. Yes.
Srila Prabhupada. And as soon as the blood corpuscles change, you change your body.
Dr. Singh. In scientific terminology, can the eternality of the soul be compared to conservation of energy?
Srila Prabhupada. There is no question of the conservation of energy, because energy is always existing.
Dr. Singh. But according to scientific terminology, the law of conservation of energy is that energy cannot be created or destroyed, which means, I think, that it is eternal.
Srila Prabhupada. Oh, yes, that we admit. Krsna is eternal; therefore all His energies are eternal.
Dr. Singh. Is that why the living entity is also eternal?
Srila Prabhupada. Yes. If the sun is eternal, its energies--heat and light--are also eternal.
Dr. Singh. Does it follow from this, then, that life cannot be created or destroyed?
Srila Prabhupada. Yes. Life is eternal. It is not created or destroyed. It is only temporarily covered. I am eternal, but last night I was covered by sleep, so I think in terms of yesterday and today. This is the condition of the material world.

Everything Is Spiritual

Dr. Singh. Is material consciousness the absence of Krsna consciousness?
Srila Prabhupada. Yes.
Dr. Singh. And when there is Krsna consciousness, where is material nature?
Srila Prabhupada. If you continue in Krsna consciousness, you will see that nothing is material. When you offer a flower to Krsna, it is not material. Krsna will not accept anything material. And this does not mean that the flower is material on the bush, and then it becomes spiritual when you offer it to Krsna. No. The flower is "material" only as long as you think that it is made for your enjoyment. But as soon as you see that it is for Krsna's enjoyment, you see it as it really is--spiritual.
Dr. Singh. So the entire world is actually spiritual?
Srila Prabhupada. Yes. Therefore, we want to engage everything in Krsna's service; that is the spiritual world.
Dr. Singh. Can we also appreciate Krsna's creation in that light? For example, can we think, "This tree is very beautiful because it is Krsna's property"?
Srila Prabhupada. Yes. That is Krsna consciousness.
Dr. Singh. If someone looks at the Deity of Krsna in the temple and thinks that it is only stone or wood, what does that mean?
Srila Prabhupada. He is ignorant of the facts. How can the Deity be material? Stone is also Krsna's energy. Just as electric energy is everywhere but only the electricians know how to utilize it, so Krsna is everywhere--even in stone--but only His devotees know how to utilize stone to appreciate Krsna. The devotees know that stone cannot exist outside of Krsna. Therefore, when the devotees see the Deity, they say, "Here is Krsna." They see the real oneness of Krsna and His energy.

Simultaneously One and Different

Dr. Singh. Is it true that Krsna conscious persons perceive Krsna in a plain stone as much as in the Deity carved from stone?
Srila Prabhupada. Yes.
Dr. Singh. Just as much?
Srila Prabhupada. Yes. Why not? In the Bhagavad-gita (9.4) Krsna says:

maya tatam idam sarvam / jagad avyakta-murtina
mat-sthani sarva-bhutani / na caham tesv avasthitah

This means that Krsna's energy--that is, Krsna in His partially manifested form--pervades every atom of the universe. But His fully manifested personal form is present in the Deity shaped according to His directions. This is the philosophy of acintya-bhedabheda-tattva, the simultaneous oneness and difference of God and His energies. For example, when the sunshine is in your room, that does not mean the sun itself is in your room. The sun and its separated energies, like heat and light, are one in quality, but different in quantity.
Dr. Singh. But still, you say that one can see Krsna in ordinary stone?
Srila Prabhupada. Yes, why not? We see the stone as Krsna's energy.
Dr. Singh. But can we worship Him within the stone?
Srila Prabhupada. We can worship Him through His energy in the stone. But we cannot worship the stone as Krsna. We cannot worship this bench as Krsna. But we can worship everything because we see everything as Krsna's energy. This tree is worshipable because both Krsna and His energy are worshipable, but this does not mean we worship the tree in the same way as we worship the Deity of Krsna in the temple.
   In my childhood I was taught by my parents never to waste Krsna's energy. They taught me that if even a small grain of rice was stuck between the floorboards, I should pick it up, touch it to my forehead and eat it to save it from being wasted. I was taught how to see everything in relation to Krsna. That is Krsna consciousness. We therefore do not like to see anything wasted or misused. We are teaching our disciples how to use everything for Krsna and how to understand that everything is Krsna. As Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita (6.30):

yo mam pasyati sarvatra / sarvam ca mayi pasyati
tasyaham na pranasyami / sa ca me na pranasyati

"For one who sees Me everywhere and sees everything in Me, I am never lost, nor is he ever lost to Me."

The Eleventh Morning Walk: May 15, 1973
Recorded on May 15, 1973, in Cheviot Hills Park, Los Angeles

Srila Prabhupada is accompanied by Dr. Singh and other students.

Detecting the Spirit Soul

Dr. Singh. Scientists find it very hard to see the spirit soul. They say its existence is very doubtful.
Srila Prabhupada. How can they see it? It is too small to see. Who has that seeing power?
Dr. Singh. Still, they want to sense it by some means.
Srila Prabhupada. if you inject someone with just one hundredth of a grain of very venomous poison, he dies immediately. No one can see the poison or how it acts, but it is acting nevertheless. So why don't the scientists see the soul by its action? In such cases we have to see by the effect. The Vedas say that because of the minute particle called the soul, the whole body is working nicely. If I pinch myself, I immediately feel it because I am conscious throughout the whole of my skin. But as soon as the soul is out of my body, which is the case when my body dies, you can take the same skin and cut and chop it, and nobody will protest. Why is this simple thing so hard to understand? Is this not detecting spirit?
Dr. Singh. We may detect the soul in this way, but what about God?
Srila Prabhupada. First of all let us understand the soul. The soul is a sample God. If you can understand the sample, then you can understand the whole.

Modern Science: Help or Harm?

Dr. Singh. Scientists are in the process of trying to create life.
Srila Prabhupada. "Process of"! "Trying to"! That we kick out; that we do not accept. A beggar is saying, "I am trying to be a millionaire." We say, "When you become a millionaire, then talk. Now you are a poor beggar; that is all." The scientists say they are trying, but suppose I ask you, "What are you?" Will you say, "I am trying to be..."? What are you now? That is the question. "We are trying" is not a proper answer, what to speak of a scientific proposition.
Dr. Singh. Well, although they haven't been able to create life so far, they say that soon they should be able to do so.
Srila Prabhupada. Any rascal may say that. If you say, "In the future I shall be able to do something extraordinary," why should I trust or believe you?
Dr. Singh. Well, the scientists say they have done so much in the past and they will accomplish more in the future.
Srila Prabhupada. In the past there was death, and people are dying now. So what have the scientists done?
Dr. Singh. Helped them.
Srila Prabhupada. Scientists have helped to minimize the duration of life! Formerly men lived one hundred years; now they seldom live more than sixty or seventy years. And the scientists have discovered atomic energy; now they can kill millions of men. So they have helped only in dying. They have not helped in living, and still they dare to declare that they will create.
Dr. Singh. But now we have airplanes and--
Srila Prabhupada. The scientists cannot stop death, they cannot stop birth, they cannot stop disease, and they cannot stop old age. So what have they done? Formerly people used to become old, and nowadays they are becoming old. Formerly people used to become diseased, and now they are becoming diseased. Now there is more medicine--and more disease. So what have they accomplished? Scientists have not helped improve the order of the world. We are going to challenge all the rascal scientists who say that life has grown out of matter. The fact is that matter has grown from life.

The Illusion of Progress

Srila Prabhupada. How long can science cheat people? One hundred years, two hundred years? They cannot cheat them for all time.
Dr. Singh. Cheating has been going on since time immemorial, so perhaps they think they can continue forever.
Srila Prabhupada. Not since time immemorial! Science has been cheating people for only the past two or three hundred years, not before that.
Dr. Singh. Oh, really?
Srila Prabhupada. Yes, for the last two hundred years they have been preaching that life comes from matter--not for thousands of years. And the cheating will be finished in another fifty years.
Dr. Singh. Yes, now there is a so-called anti-intellectual movement. People are rebelling against science and modern progress.
Srila Prabhupada. And what is that science? It is not science! It is ignorance. Ignorance is passing for science, and irreligion is passing for religion. But this cheating cannot go on for long, because some people are becoming intelligent.
Dr. Singh. In Newsweek, one of the largest magazines in the United States, there was an article about the degradation of Christianity. The article included a cartoon picturing the devil causing earthquakes. There was recently a very large earthquake in South America that killed many thousands of people. The cartoon attributed such things to the devil, and right next to him it showed Richard Nixon presenting himself as a follower of Christ but bombing Southeast Asia. In this cartoon, the devil turned to Richard Nixon and said, "It's hell keeping up with Christians."
Srila Prabhupada. Yes, people will criticize in that way. People are becoming advanced. How long can they be cheated by so-called science and so-called religion? If Mr. Nixon loves his countrymen, why does he not love his country's cows? They are also born in the same land, and they have the same right to live. Why are they killed? "Thou shalt not kill." But the animals are being killed. That is imperfection. Krsna embraces both the cows and Radharani.[18] That is perfection. Krsna even talks with the birds. One day on the bank of the Yamuna River, He was talking with a bird, because He speaks even in the languages of the birds. An old lady saw this and was struck with wonder: "Oh, He is talking with a bird!"
Dr. Singh. You mean He was actually talking the way the birds talk?
Srila Prabhupada. Yes. One of Krsna's qualities described in the Vedas is that He can speak any language. He is the father of all living beings, and the father can understand the language of his children.
   Krsna is the supreme enjoyer. Actually, except for those who are Krsna conscious, no one can have any real knowledge, nor can anyone enjoy. One simply suffers, but he thinks the suffering is enjoyment. This is called maya, or illusion. In America people work hard day and night, and they think, "I am enjoying." This is maya. A conditioned soul cannot enjoy anything; he simply suffers, but he thinks he is enjoying.
   Therefore, in Srimad-Bhagavatam the conditioned soul is likened to the camel. The camel is very fond of eating thorny twigs that cut his tongue. While he is eating them, blood issues from his tongue and mixes with the thorny twigs. They become a little tasty, and he is thinking, "Oh, these twigs are very nice." That is called maya. Maya means "that which is not." Ma means "not," and ya means "this." So maya means "not this." That is the explanation of maya, or illusion. The scientists are in maya because they think they are improving things and becoming happy. But this world, along with everything in it, will eventually be finished because it is maya; it is not what we think it is. As Srimad-Bhagavatam explains, the materialists are thinking they are becoming victorious, but they are actually being defeated.

The Twelfth Morning Walk: May 17, 1973
Recorded on May 17, 1973, a misty morning, in Cheviot Hills Park, Los Angeles

Srila Prabhupada is accompanied by Dr. Singh, Karandhara dasa adhikari,
Krsnakanti dasa adhikari and other students.

Yogic Weapons

Srila Prabhupada. You have no power to drive away this mist. Scientists merely explain it with some word jugglery, saying that it contains certain chemicals. [He laughs.] But they have no power to drive it away.
Dr. Singh. They do have an explanation as to how the mist is formed.
Srila Prabhupada. That they may have, and I may have that also, but that is not a very great credit. If you really know how it is formed, then you should be able to counteract it. Dr. Singh. We know how it is formed.
Srila Prabhupada. Then discover how to counteract it. Formerly, in Vedic warfare, the atomic brahmastra[19] was used. And to counteract it, the opposing army would have to use a weapon that would transform it into water. But where is such a science today?
Dr. Singh. Mist is something like milk. Milk looks white, but actually it is a colloidal suspension of certain protein molecules. Similarly, fog is a colloidal suspension of water.
Srila Prabhupada. So if you could create some type of fire, the mist would be immediately driven away; water can be driven away by fire. But that you cannot do. If you were to explode a bomb, it would generate heat, and all the mist would go away.
Karandhara. That might damage the whole city.
Srila Prabhupada. Everyone knows that fire can counteract water, but you cannot drive away the mist without killing people or destroying property. But by nature's way, as soon as the sun rises, the mist is vanquished. The power of the sun is greater than your power. Therefore, you have to accept that inconceivable power exists.

Symptoms of God

Srila Prabhupada. Without accepting the principle of inconceivable power, no one can understand God. God is not so cheap that any so-called yogi can become God. Such imitation gods are for rascals and fools. Those who are intelligent will test whether or not such a person has inconceivable power. We accept Krsna as God because He has demonstrated His inconceivable power. As a child, Krsna lifted a big hill. And Lord Rama, an incarnation of Krsna, constructed a bridge without pillars by floating stones on water. So one should not accept God cheaply. Nowadays, some rascal comes along and says, "I am an incarnation of God," and another rascal accepts him. But Lord Rama and Lord Krsna actually demonstrated Their inconceivable power. Sometimes people say the descriptions of Their activities are just stories or myths. But these literatures were composed by Valmiki,[20] Vyasadeva and other acaryas, who are all great and vastly learned sages. Why would these great sages simply waste their time writing mythology? They never said it was mythology. They treated the accounts as actual facts. For instance, in the Tenth Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, Vyasadeva tells of a forest fire in Vrndavana. All of Krsna's cowherd boyfriends became disturbed and looked to Krsna for help. He simply swallowed up the whole fire. That is inconceivable mystic power. That is God. Because we are tiny samples of God, or Krsna, we also possess inconceivable mystic power within our bodies--but only in very minute quantities.

Scientific Knowledge Comes From Krsna

Krsnakanti. The doctors marvel at the complex nature of the human brain.
Srila Prabhupada. Yes, but it is not the brain that works the body; it is the spirit soul. Does a computer work by itself? No, a man works it. He pushes the button; then something happens. Otherwise, what is the value of the machine? You can keep the machine for thousands of years, but it will not work until a man comes to push the button. But who is working, the machine or the man? Similarly, the human brain is also a machine, and it is working under the direction of Paramatma, an expansion of God within everyone's heart.
   Scientists should accept God and His mystic power. If they don't, they should be considered foolish. On the basis of transcendental knowledge, we are directly challenging many big scientists and philosophers. The other day, you brought that chemist, and I told him, "You are foolish." But he was not angry. He admitted it, and I defeated all his arguments. Perhaps you remember.
Dr. Singh. Yes. In fact, he acknowledged that perhaps Krsna didn't give him all the procedural steps needed to perform his experiments.
Srila Prabhupada. He is against Krsna, so why should Krsna give him any facilities? If you are against Krsna and you want credit without Krsna, you will fail. You must first be submissive, and then Krsna will give you all facilities. We dare to face any scientist or philosopher and challenge him. How? On the strength of Krsna. I know that when I talk with them, Krsna will give me the necessary intelligence to defeat them. Otherwise, from the viewpoint of scientific qualification, they are much more qualified than we. We are laymen before them. But we know Krsna, and Krsna knows everything. Therefore we can challenge any scientists, just as a small child can challenge a very big man because he knows, "My father is here." He clutches the hand of his father, who makes sure that nobody can harm him.
Dr. Singh. Is the human form of life spoiled for those who do not try to understand Krsna consciousness?
Srila Prabhupada. Yes. People who do not try to understand their relationship with God simply die like animals--like cats and dogs. They take birth, eat, sleep, beget children and die. This is the sum total of their human lives. These rascals think, "I am this body." They have no information of atma. Atma means the self, or the individual soul. Srimad-Bhagavatam and Bhagavad-gita give us knowledge about the atma, but people are unaware of this.
   People are unaware of the knowledge given to human society in the Vedic literature. For example, the Vedas inform us that cow dung is pure. Here in America especially, people bring their dogs onto the street to pass stool. Of course, dog stool is very impure--germs thrive in it. But people are such rascals that they do not consider this; instead, they distribute dog stool everywhere. But there's no cow dung to be seen, even though the Vedas say that cow dung is pure. Here is a sign: "Littering Illegal." But dog stool is allowed. Just see how foolish people are. It is illegal to drop a paper on the grass, but your dog is allowed to pass stool. The government authorities will not allow you to bring even one mango from another country; but they will allow your dog to distribute its stool everywhere, although this stool is full of infectious germs.

The Space Program: A Childish Waste of Time and Money

Dr. Singh. When the astronauts returned from the moon to the surface of the earth, the scientists in the space program were very careful. They thought the astronauts might have brought some new germs as yet unknown, so they put the astronauts in quarantine for several days to make sure that--
Srila Prabhupada. First of all, find out whether they have gone to the moon. I am not so sure. Sixteen years ago, when I wrote Easy Journey to Other Planets, I remarked that the scientists were childish in their attempts to explore outer space and would never be successful. Many years later, when I visited San Francisco, a press reporter asked me, "What is your opinion about the moon expedition?" I told him, "It is simply a waste of time and money, that's all."
Krsnakanti. The space program recently had another failure.
Srila Prabhupada. That is always happening. What was it?
Krsnakanti. They sent up a space vehicle to orbit the earth and act as sort of a space outpost, but it failed. It cost two billion dollars.
Srila Prabhupada. Why are they wasting time and money in that way?
Krsnakanti. They were criticized in the newspapers.
Srila Prabhupada. They are simply childish fools. What have they gained in the last--how many years? For how many years have they been trying to go to the moon? with their sputnik.
Srila Prabhupada. But they were trying for many years before that. So let us say that for twenty-five years they have been trying. They have not gained anything except dust, but still they are trying. How obstinate! The space program will never be successful.
Dr. Singh. They say that in the future they want to go to the subsurface of Mars.
Srila Prabhupada. They are all becoming "big men" with their statements about the future.
Dr. Singh. They say that it will happen in about ten years.
Srila Prabhupada. So what if they say one year? They may say ten years or one year, but we do not accept such propositions. We want to see what they are doing now.
Dr. Singh. They are developing their technology by using small scale models.
Srila Prabhupada. They are simply childish. In my childhood I used to watch the tramcars go along the rail. Once I thought, "I shall take a stick and touch it to the wire, and I shall also go along the rails." The scientists, with all their plans, are just as childish. They spend so much time and money, but what is their purpose? Their effort is hopeless because they do not actually know the purpose of life. The scientists are spending large sums of money, and politicians are financing them, but the result is zero. They are like a doctor who doesn't understand a particular disease, but who still says to his patient, "All right, first try this pill, and if that doesn't work, then try this pill." The doctor will never admit that he doesn't know the remedy for the disease. The scientists are simply bluffing and cheating. They cannot solve the real problems of life--birth, death, old age and disease--and therefore all their programs are taking place on the utopian platform, which in Sanskrit is called akasa-puspa. Akasa-puspa means "a flower from the sky." All their efforts to know the truth by exploring outer space are like trying to pluck a flower from the sky.
   To give another example, the scientists act like foolish ducks. In India we may sometimes observe a duck following all day behind a bull. The duck is thinking that the testicles of the bull are a fish. In India this is a common sight. The bull is walking, and all day the duck is walking behind, following that big fish and thinking, "It will drop, and I will eat it."